This is a relatively old article [which is apparently no longer available on the Daily Iowan site], but I only recently came across it. According to David Bazan, formerly Pedro the Lion, he no longer believes in Christ, which faith was especially evident on the first couple PtL discs. At least he doesn’t try to redefine Christianity to include his new belief:
“If I listed off what I believed and what I didn’t believe, no Christian would say I was a Christian,” he said. “It’s just a distinction that I just don’t care about anymore. Am I a Christian, am I not? – it doesn’t matter to me.”
A sad state of affairs for those who know a Christ to whom David Bazan matters. But he’s honest. This is less than honest:
[Regarding his wife, who is still a Christian:] “We have a really sweet rapport – she knows this isn’t some sort of posturing, me saying ‘I don’t believe in God anymore,’ ” said the musician. “In regards to Ellanor, our daughter, we’ve been really careful. I would prefer she wouldn’t know any Bible stories or know about Jesus. And yet, that’s what’s going to happen,” because Ann Bazan intends to bring Ellanor to church. “But I’m cool knowing that she’ll be, hopefully, in a situation where she’s not forced to assume certain things are true and she’s given space to make her decisions about stuff like that much later.”
From his music, I would have thought that Bazan was a fairly intelligent guy, but this sort of nonsense is ridiculously naïve. Everyone is forced to assume certain things are true! It’s not an option, as if someone can simply suspend judgment and assume nothing is true until enough evidence is in. That’s just stupid; and what’s more, it cannot be true. David Bazan now assumes Christianity is not true. His wife assumes Christianity is true. His daughter will not be able to avoid assuming one or the other. Even if his daughter assumes that Christianity does not matter, she’s assuming that it’s true that it doesn’t matter. Perhaps he means that she’s not forced to assume certain things like the existence and love of Christ to be true. But she is still not making some objective (i.e., impossible) decision. She will certainly “make her decisions about stuff like that” later, but it will not be an objective decision, made outside of her unavoidably subjective existence.
But beyond the philosophical question of whether anyone ever is not forced to assume certain things are true (they are always “forced,” in some way), it is literal nonsense to say that a parent will allow a child to make up her decisions at some point in the future. It is not something that parents allow; children simply do it. Parents do teach their values, their morality, their religion, their beliefs to their children whether they think they are or not. Parents who say that they don’t force their child to go to church is not teaching the child to make up his own mind; they are teaching the child that church doesn’t matter, which is quite a different thing. The child may later decide that church does or doesn’t matter, but it’s not because the parent “allowed” the child to make up his own mind. It’s because the child has his own mind to make up. There is no third way.
But there’s more:
“The body of work of Pedro the Lion is in way a history of me,” he said. “You know, my faith slowly being corrupted and slowly sort of disintegrating, which, from my vantage point, is an entirely good thing. It’s a very necessary thing to go back and to suspend all your assumptions about the universe that you grew up with.”
I don’t know what corrupted Bazan’s faith or what caused it to disintegrate, but I know it wasn’t Bazan “suspending all [his] assumptions,” which, again, is impossible. He didn’t suspend any assumptions, he simply changed them, which is far different. Now, he has a whole other set of assumptions about the universe in which he lives, which make his old assumptions look false. But he can never suspend all assumptions. Can’t happen. As soon as he thought he was suspending his old assumptions, he was doing so from within an already new set of assumptions. And, if God ever brings him back to trust in Christ, it will not because Bazan has suspended these new, unbelieving assumptions; it will be because his assumptions will change again.
Pray for David Bazan and his family, especially his wife, to whom he has abdicated responsibility to raise their daughter “in the way she should go.”
Pedro the Lion remains one of my favorite bands.
Man, does this ever bum me out. I knew Bazan back when he was teaching Sunday School. He’s why I picked up guitar. His dad and mine served together at Neighborhood Church in Modesto, California.
I think what really got to Dave was being in the circles of a certain mindset that just cannot conceive of an absolute, loving God. For people in that decay, there is an ongoing process of testing the fence for a break, and then squeezing through. Eventually you end up squirming out due to the herding nature of man.
The same thing happened to Pete Stewart of Grammatrain. He was running in similar circles and wore down by attrition. How he’s divorced and seeminly miserable.
This is so terribly demoralizing. If it was just semantics, it’d be different. But when the spirit leaves a man, that’s a tragedy.
dude. you guys. come one. people change. “pray for david bazan” is a weird thing to write. the guy is on a journey like everyone else. he might just be a little more open to what he finds than some other people.
Why should you not pray for someone on “a journey”?
i agree that we should pray for david bazan as much as we should pray for timotheos.
honestly, it does make me sad that david bazan seems to have lost interest in Jesus…but not enough to write a post like the one above. really, some of this seems to be taken out of context. assuming it’s not though, that’s really between david and God.
on the flip side of the coin, we should pray for anyone we encounter. i hope david finds renewal in Christ on a daily basis and i believe that God will find anyone who is a lost sheep. i will continue to listen for any new or current project that david has as i find God speaks through his music.
I’ve always appreciated Dave’s honesty in his lyrics. He has never been afraid to grapple with tough issues and the complacency he has perceived in mainstream Christian culture. I have always sensed that he was on a journey towards the Truth. I believe that Christ is still somehow present in any seeker after truth. Simone Weil once said that “though a person may run as fast as he can away from Christ, if it is toward what he considers true, he runs in fact straight into the arms of Christ.” Even one who has become indifferent, cynical and jaded can still be closer to the Kingdom than we realize and it might be we, who stand in judgment, who need more serious prayer. Lord, have mercy on us and save us!
Your use of the word assume is quite expansive. Having come to a conclusion through deliberation does not mean that everytime in the future that you rely on the decision you are “assuming” something. No, you are relying on the previously deliberated conclusion. An assumption is something that has not received deliberative consideration. Bazan is just saying that he doesn’t want his daughter to never deliberatively consider questions about Christianity’s truth. That seems like a very reasonable thing to say. Would you want your child to never substantively engage the possibility that the world might be different than what her Christian beliefs suggested? Maybe so. But then your edging towards fideism.
“Bazan is just saying that he doesn’t want his daughter to never deliberatively consider questions about Christianity’s truth. That seems like a very reasonable thing to say. Would you want your child to never substantively engage the possibility that the world might be different than what her Christian beliefs suggested?”
So, you think it’s “very reasonable” for Bazan to say that he doesn’t want his daughter to “deliberatively consider questions about Christianity’s truth” but you think that Christians should “substantively engage the possibility” that the world might be different than Christianity “suggested”?
Tim
This may just be that I am reading my own view into Bazan’s words. As a father and Sunday School teacher myself I understand that thought process with children. The last thing I want to do is to “program” or “indoctrinate” my children with a Christian mindset. I want my children to fall in love with Jesus because of who He is, not because of what they will grow up in. Maybe this is a piece of what David means. At some point we each have to make the faith our own; not our parents’, but ours. Maybe it would be easier to do if we were taught the story and not immersed in the culture. I still recall David’s best lyrics in “Secret of an Easy Yoke.”
I don’t know David. I know the image of him I hold in my mind. The growth that I went through because of his words. The frustration with religion, but the heart that propels his version of “Be Thou My Vision.” I just pray that he has not given up.
Chris
“As a father and Sunday School teacher myself I understand that thought process with children. The last thing I want to do is to “program” or “indoctrinate” my children with a Christian mindset. I want my children to fall in love with Jesus because of who He is, not because of what they will grow up in.”
I don’t think you’re that naive. If you are not indoctrinating them, someone else will be. There is no neutral position. You seem to have bought the idea that “indoctrination” is a four-letter word, but it all depends on who is doing the indoctrinating, and what is being indoctrinated. Don’t you believe that there is doctrine which Christians believe? If that’s true, you had better in-doctrinate that into your children, or someone else will in-doctrinate them with a different doctrine. Read Matthew 28:19-20. Jesus wants you to indoctrinate your children. And if you don’t, I doubt they will love Jesus for who He is.
Of course our faith has to be ours; otherwise it’s not faith. And I question whether you can be “taught the story” without being “immersed in the culture,” at least the Christian culture. (I don’t mean any sort of sectarian “Christian” subculture, but the culture of the universal Church.) The story is inseparable from that culture, and the culture is the context for the story.
Tim
You are right in my 4 letter word understanding of the word “indoctrinate.” I define this word with the film “Jesus Camp.” This is a frightening look at how we teach our children about Jesus.
There is a reason a staggering amount of kids leave the church after high school. Is it because the truth doesn’t hold? No, of course not. It is due to a myriad of things, one of which being that we attempt to shelter our children from other ideas, all of which in the long run don’t hold up to the story of Christ. This is why I say we have to be careful about how we teach our children. So we don’t corrupt them with christianity the religion, but rather inspire them to join along in Christianity the movement.
Jesus emphaizes the faith of children because it isn’t corrupt. They believe honestly and whole heartedly. What I read in David’s words is his own regret that his faith, like all of ours, disintegrated from that place. If maybe we work less on doctrine and more on inspiration, we can avoid the burn out of our children.
I’m not writing this out of a naive standpoint, but rather out of months and years worth of experience, frustration, loss, and regained joy.
peace,
Chris
“So we don’t corrupt them with christianity the religion, but rather inspire them to join along in Christianity the movement.”
What, exactly, is “Christianity the movement”?
“Jesus emphaizes the faith of children because it isn’t corrupt. They believe honestly and whole heartedly.”
This is a denial of original sin. Jesus speaks of children having faith because children cannot do things for themselves. They are helpless and what they have is given to them.
“If maybe we work less on doctrine and more on inspiration, we can avoid the burn out of our children.”
I don’t know what you mean. The problem is certainly not the doctrine, because Christianity is nothing without doctrine.
Jesus taught love. I LOVE David Bazan. Let’s just show him love and pray for him at the same time.
I don’t know why everyone is arguing over this.
Ya it bums me out that Dave is loosing faith…. But why write this whole thing bashing him and over analyzing everything he says? what good will come out of this? Does it make you feel better about your own faith to put him down?
“Everyone is forced to assume certain things are true! It’s not an option, as if someone can simply suspend judgment and assume nothing is true until enough evidence is in. That’s just stupid; and what’s more, it cannot be true.”
There are other things here that I don’t agree with, but I’m just going to comment upon this one. Just because we are shaped by certain social forces, whether they be churches, parents, friends, etc., does not mean that we have to ascribe to the “truths” we are given. It’s like always being told viewing the ocean is a “pretty” sight. It is only in questioning these socially ascribed “truths” that we realize that we don’t find certain things pretty like other people do. I think that’s what David is getting at. He questioned everything that he “assumed” and didn’t find harmony in it. Everyone has their own ideas and choices to make. It makes me happy to see that his conclusions are being drawn from putting enough thought and time into them instead of just accepting these “truths” for the rest of his life.
This is not about bashing David Bazan; nor do I think I am over-analyzing what he says. It’s about a particular view of what faith is and how one comes to or leaves the Faith. It’s also about the silly notion (rampant in our society) that children will objectively make up their minds about any religion or none as long as we don’t “indoctrinate” them. To not tell them that something is right is to tell them that it is wrong or insignificant.
And, no, it doesn’t make me feel “so good to always tell [him] where he’s wrong.” (This is not “always;” I like his music and most of what he writes about.) And, yes, I would say it to him in person, not write it in a song.
Tim
Christopher, you miss the point. The point is not that we must accept the truths we have been given or that we can never change our minds. The point is that he did not view his previous assumptions “objectively” (as if that were possible) and then come to some new, objective conclusion. He simply substituted new assumptions for the old ones. Which is what we all do when we change our minds.
Tim
honestly at first this all angered me. then came the “slap in the face”. all truth aside…i blame the church. and by church i mean us as believers. when someone “loses interest” in a relationship with God; it is our fault. this happens a lot in larger more “corporate” churches. to much legality and rules set forth by people…and not enough of what it all boils down to; a real meaningful relationship, daily communion, and time in the Word…with God.
if this offends or bothers..no apologies. sad but true i guess. as christians we need a reality check…now we are getting them..daily. just watch the news or read the newspaper..then make a decision for yourself. examine, realize, and change it.
Christians can certainly be a stumbling block before Christ. However, that may not be the only reason people fall away from the Faith. Many are called; few are chosen. It could just be our damn sin that drives us away from the forgiver of sin.
Tim
Tim,
I think this is a great post. But, more important than the actual post, I have found the comments beneath it. I agree with just about everything you have written. Indoctrination is the way of the modern world. We no longer lives in fifes and shires, but in towns and cities. We no longer simply work our farms with our families, but we are subjected to conflicting media messages every time we step out of our door.
As Bilbo said, “It’s a dangerous business, Frodo, stepping out of your door.” And so it is. Because, when we step out of our doors, we step out into the world that has been corrupted by sin–the sin into which every one of us is born. But, more than that, we step out into the world that God created. We step out into a battleground.
Thankfully, the battle is already won in Heaven, and may you and I–and, God willing, Dave Bazan–celebrate there together. But I digress. It is our duty, as Christians, as thinkers, to indoctrinate our children in the way of the Lord Jesus Christ. As you said, Tim: if we don’t, someone else will.
The Christian education of our children is not only one of our foremost duties as Christians, but it is one of the chief ways in which Christ has blessed us by allowing us to fight for Him on earth.
Bless you, Brother, on this most joyous of today.
“Unto us a child was born, a son was given.”
- Logan
I stumbled across this blog in a David Bazan search, and found it very interesting. But there sure seem like a lot of pronouncements on here – who says Bazan – or anyone – can only substitute new assumptions for old assumptions? I can understand this if you’re talking about somebody who is simply jumping from one faith-system to another, I suppose, but not about anyone who is in an ongoing search for truth. And, really, aren’t most of us, no matter our religious persuasion? If we aren’t, then we’ve reduced our religion to the level of a cult, which is just a kind of inverted atheism.
Of course, I guess that’s a kind of pronouncement too, isn’t it? Well, they’re awfully hard to resist.
-Dudley
we can remove ourselves from Him (in reference to God). He never takes his eyes, or hand off of us. we however have a gift His other creations don’t…free will. we can remove ourselves out of communion with Him and as well as with other believers. people put too much pressure on us. i am speaking of coarse of christianity as a whole. we are always, seemingly, in a race to have a bigger/better church. with better programs to intice “the new christians” of the congregation. all this take splace and us “seasoned” christians…get left to fight the good fight alone. thank God for church growth..but with that growth comes responsibilty and accountability.
if we could all see past our indifferences and just strip it all down to what really matters..loving each other and helping each other out along the way…instead of turning our knives on one another. that is what we are known for in the world…killing and torturing our own brothers and sisters. we have to get over this “junk”. get back to the Word of God…and take it for what it says…and live it…every single day. and that will be when we see amazing things happen on a grand-er scale.
why this topic is skidding off the runway i don’t know…but i like unorthodox settings.
bottom line-we gota pray for and lift up those who fall…so that they maybe lifted back up. help pick them up/dust them off/and get them back on stable ground. to love our neighbor as ourselves.
David I’m sure this isn’t one sided. I’m sure you have been pushed away from Christianity as well as pulled away. That’s what we christians do in our fear of disagreement, we push.
I’m sorry.
I pray for you and your family that there will be peace among your hearts.
I stumbled over your blog when I googled Bazan. I was trying to find out when (if ever) his new album is going to be released. This is the first time I read that article that you sited. I kind of felt a slight punch in the gut after reading that his faith had “disintegrated.” I have always felt a kinship with Bazan, not just because I love his music, but because my dad is a pastor and I grew up in a strong Christian household, but over the years my faith has “disintegrated” too. So when I read that he’s basically over his faith in Christ, it really hit home. It’s an odd feeling.
But to David’s defense (and I supposed to my own as well), when he said he “suspended [his] assumptions,” he was probably talking about suspending the indoctrination of his childhood – his perceptions of Christianity. I think he was saying that the old church answers to the big questions no longer satisfy him. It is not a conscious to decision to deny “the truth” of Christ, it is an inability to honestly believe that what the Bible says is true. At least that is how I feel, and from all I’ve read and heard of Bazan, I think that is how he feels too.
“But to David’s defense (and I supposed to my own as well), when he said he “suspended [his] assumptions,” he was probably talking about suspending the indoctrination of his childhood – his perceptions of Christianity. I think he was saying that the old church answers to the big questions no longer satisfy him.”
I understand that, and if whatever answers he once received do not satisfy him, they do not satisfy him. Which, of course, doesn’t meant that Christ cannot give him what he is looking for.
The argument of my post is not really about David Bazan so much as it is about what it means to have assumptions about truth and what it means to change those assumptions. I believe that humans are creatures that require assumptions, of one sort or another. So if David “suspended” his assumptions about Christianity being true, he did not really suspend them in the sense that he could objectively evaluate other options. There is no objectivity in that sense. Other assumptions must have taken the place of his previous assumptions for him to consider that Christianity might not be true.
Tim
Timotheos,
I do not agree that we cannot be objective about faith. Maybe objectivity does not jive with certain philosophies to which you ascribe, but personally speaking, I try to be as objective as possible in evaluating faith, just like I do in evaluating relational and social issues. Obviously it is impossible to completely step outside of our consciousness, so there will always be bits and pieces of subjectivity in our beliefs, but overall, I think it is possible to at least be mildly objective about what we believe.
If, for argument’s sake, objectivity is impossible and “other assumptions must have taken the place of his previous assumptions,” couldn’t his “new” assumption simply be that he views all faiths and non-faith objectively? Seems like that conscious decision would leave him and anyone open to making more objective evaluations.
You admit that it “is impossible to completely step outside of our consciousness, so there will always be bits and pieces of subjectivity in our beliefs, but overall, I think it is possible to at least be mildly objective about what we believe.”
Our consciousness is one big subjectivity! The fact that we share assumptions with other people, thus thinking ourselves objective, does not change the fact that we cannot be objective. I have no idea what it would mean to be “mildly objective.”
I guess I just think it’s wrong to say that a person cannot reevaluate his or her beliefs. David Bazan used to believe in Jesus. He did so because other people told him it was the right thing to believe. He grew up. He realized that believing in a supernatural being is unnecessary. Now he does not believe in Jesus. End of story.
Okay, maybe I’m not making myself clear, because people keep suggesting that I don’t think people can change their beliefs. That’s missing the point. The point is that you cannot change your beliefs from a so-called objective position. That’s the end of the story.
Incidentally, how do you know Bazan believed in Jesus because “other people told him it was the right thing to do”? How do we even know what kind of Jesus he believed in? Maybe it was the American evangelical, law-based Jesus (which seems to be the case from his lyrics). Perhaps we should get rid of that Jesus, and trust the saving, forgiving Jesus instead.
Thanks,
Tim
Incidentally, how do you know Bazan believed in Jesus because “other people told him it was the right thing to do”?
I have to assume that Bazan’s parents told him both implicitly and explicitly that believing in Jesus is the right way to live, given his dad’s profession.
How do we even know what kind of Jesus he believed in?
I don’t know. You’re obviously smart enough to know that there are many, many different versions of Jesus floating around this planet of ours. A little google work of “Pentecostal Assemblies of God” will probably lead us to that answer.
I haven’t posted to this blog in a month. It is interesting that this conversation keeps going. I just wanted to throw out a few thoughts/questions to see what would stick…
Maybe we cannot clear our heads, so to speak, and evaluate each piece of information free from bias, but when we change our minds/hearts it tends to be from a place of tension. Why does this tension exist? For me (and I’m sure for a large number of teenagers who leave the church after leaving home), this tension exists because of a sudden realization that we have been sheltered. Maybe my thoughts about indoctrination come off wrong. Maybe the point is that we have, for so long, relied on the easy answers. “Why is little Susie in the hospital with cancer?” – insert pat thoughtless Christian answer here…
Maybe the issue isn’t the doctrine, but the way it is presented… simplistically with no room for questions, concerns, or doubt. We have become so afraid that we will be found out as phony that we squeeze and squeeze, and in the end find our fates after our attempt to avoid them.
I guess I’m just wondering if this whole conversation doesn’t speak to a larger problem about resting on the fact that the Truth of Jesus stands firm in the face of the philosophies of the world which mask themselves as truth. We attempt to program our children/youth/new converts instead of teach them, because we are afraid that the Truth will only look like truth after a while.
peace,
Chris
I think that you are defining the word assume differently than Dave was using it. Dave, it seems, meant “dogma” by assumptions: he meant unchallenged assumptions.
It looks like Dave challenged the dogma that he was taught when he was younger, and came to a different conclusion than what he was told. I respect that.
-Pete
i think what Daves going through is something everyone who pursues a relationship with God needs to go through. I don’t mean that we should all have a point where we lose faith but we definantly need to question what we believe in. If we mindlessly consider ourselves Christians that’s not what God intended at all. He wants us to have a real relationship with Him. But to do that we need to truly believe in a very deep and real way that He is really there and is every bit of what he says he is.
As far as praying for him i think that’s probably the best thing anyone can do. So many young impressionable adults (especially college aged) look to him for what to believe. I pray that this is just a dark time in his life that when defeated will result in perhaps the best songs on faith ever written.
Evan
David Bazan is incredibly intelligent, and I think its a shame that the original post bashed him:
“I would have thought that Bazan was a fairly intelligent guy, but this sort of nonsense is ridiculously naïve”
Bazan has simply sought after truth and slowly broke away from alot of the myth, dogma, politics, posturing, delusions, lies, laws, prejudice, greed, guilt, and worldviews of modern/post-modern christianity; especially American evangelical christianity.
When he speaks of “suspending assumptions”, he is speaking of something that a bible-believing christian cannot comprehend. He is speaking about the willingness to be wrong about everything. When you pull up all the roots of every belief, judgement, assumption, deity, personal experience, conclusion, or engrained behaviors, you can truly examine them for what they are; the good and the bad. One must do this if they are to have true objectivity of what they have known to be truth.
I commend Bazan for his radical honesty. Most reading this blog won’t truly know the sensation (or pain) of the brand of self-honesty that Bazan has obviously faced. Facing down your faith & beliefs about one’s existence is possibly the hardest thing a human can do.
In conclusion, David Bazan has not “lost” his faith, or “lost” this or that. I feel that he has only gained over the years. Sure, he has cast aside alot of assumptions and beliefs, but he gives inspiration and comfort to the many, including myself, that have come from similar backgrounds and have chosen a path that is presently not reconcilable to Christianity as we’ve known it.
This is indeed an interesting (and drawn out) discussion. I agree with Tim in saying that we can’t be perfectly objective—you have to have some assumptions in order to make your decisions. Those assumptions could be the ones you grew up with, some you picked up later on, or whatever you consider to be “reasonable” right now. But you can’t get around them, otherwise there is no judging, no decision making.
I am somewhat surprised by the other Christians commenting as to how great a thing it is for someone to check their assumptions at the door and evaluate their faith. Is that really something we should eagerly be telling everyone to do? That would seem (to me) to be telling believers to always cast themselves headlong into the question, “Did God really say _____?” and hoping that they come out on the right side.
Let’s face it, people get caught up in those questions and end up the worse for it all the time. It doesn’t make me feel better if someone has looked into these questions and comes out with unorthodox answers. No matter if they feel truer to themselves with the wrong answers, I still think those are wrong answers. I guess I’d think it’d be better for someone to enter heaven braindead than to be cast into hell with a high IQ and their own answers.
Don’t get me wrong, I think there are many times in our lives when we are faced with those questions, and I think there are satisfactory orthodox answers to many of them, and that we should give a response to questioners to the best of our ability. But I’m not so foolish as to believe that everyone is up to the task, or that we’ll be able to come up with satisfactory answers for every question. Being faithful to Christ is a requirement for Christians. Being true to yourself is not. Nor is being “objective”.
he’ll come around…
point blank?. a brother has fallen. regardless whether you agree /disagree with his choice(s), he is a brother in Christ that needs counsel, NOt counseling, and lifted up in prayer. the Word tells us (in everyday terms): “that is bad for someone to know the word/Christ and fall away, it would be better off for them to have never heard”. so what we must do is put aside insignificant details, and pray for david.
is he intellegent/bright/talented/do i (we)still find his work astounding…yes to all. but, as of now…an unbeliever.so lets not argue about church legalism, and become so heavenly mnded that we are no earthly good.
selah/shalom/grace & unity/yeshua is what we need
i am actually a little offended by the last line. that is not at all your place to make any judgment, christian or not. that is their family, and their child. a decent human being knows to not say offensive things like that, even under the guise of a religious tone. i mean, i hate to spout cliches, but practice what you preach.
i have to add one thing, people like you are the reason he is no longer a christian. people that pick him apart from every angle and openly question his religious views. how disenchanting is that for someone?
Jordan, you should understand that I am writing from the perspective that believes God is real and that He expects things from parents, especially fathers. That’s all.
For the last time (I suppose you didn’t read any of the other comments), I have no particular problem with David Bazan as a person, except in my final comment. Otherwise, it’s simply a philosophical disagreement.
When Bazan writes about judgmental and hypocritical Christians, as he does often, he usually refers to those who are trying to “convert” him because he isn’t “Christian” enough. He might not like what I write, but I’m not arguing about his Christianity or lack thereof. He openly says he’s no longer a Christian.
Tim
You,know this is sad,it’s weird I just came across this today,and last night I was listening too his music,and the lord put something on my heart about him,and now I read this.
I can understand what he is going through,I went through something similar a few years ago.
See,I was brought up in this very very christian home,and was to a extent indoctrinated(that’s what he doesn’t want for his daughter,I can understand that)
And,when I came of age,I began questioning myself,I thought that in order to love Christ and Be with him,there was like the exact set of values and beliefs you had too have,Like for one I thought that if you were a “Christan” you could only be socio-Conservative.
Just things like that.
And I turned my back too god,I grew angry,I let Satan creep in,with what just started out as small little thoughts.
Then grew in to whole ideologues.
Finely I broke,and denounced Christ,and Started out on a path,but I found misery,I was misguided etc..
But,slowly I was pushed and pushed and pushed,and I did some really bad things,and turned into a anti-christ myself
And I came back to him.
And,you know what I know really did it for me?
The amount of people who were praying for me.
I think you should pray for him,I know I will,and I have.
When a brother falls,it hurts.
But,remember “we are too be spiritual,Not religious”
Ian,
I’m glad Christ re-claimed you.
But I have no idea what “spiritual, but not religious” means. Usually, it seems to end up meaning something like “self-centered religion, since the Church is so messed up.” Yeah, that’s what happens when a bunch of sinners all end up in one place. But it is a delusion to think you can get it right by yourself, picking up random pieces of what cannot be understood outside the tradition from which it came.
Tim
If you are going to express grief about his situation, you should definitely not be doing it by picking at him — all the aspects of his life. You seem like you are trying to magnify small smudges. I agree with a few of the people above me who say that it’s because of people like you that he probably “fell.”
I’m praying for him too. But please, have some tact.
ezra
“All the aspects of his life”? One single interview about his loss of faith? Seriously?
Well, Ezra, I’m glad you agree with “a few of the people above [you].” Good for you. Do you want me to establish my Pedro the Lion credentials? Like owning all their albums and David’s solo album? Like seeing PtL more often than probably any other band? What? I would gladly sit down over a beer or three with David and talk to him about what I’ve written. I would still go to his shows (unfortunately I’m in the middle of nowhere, concert-wise). I also suggest you read what I wrote on Achilles’ Heel: http://talkingdonkey.wordpress.com/2004/07/10/good-music-siete-pedro-the-lion/
At any rate, I’m glad that you are so tactful, non-judgmental, and sincere, that David would never have lost his faith had he talked to you.
Tim
I keep getting “new comment” messages any time someone posts on here. I need to change some settings on my WordPress account.
While I’m here, are any readers attending Dave Bazan’s upcoming house shows? If you are, you’re very fortunate to have secured tickets. I never got to the Undertow website before they sold out. If you were lucky enough to get tickets, see if you can convince Mr. Bazan to check out this blog and settle the matter himself. Maybe then the “new comment” messages will stop.
P.S. If you’re in Southern California and you have an extra ticket you’d like to sell, please post back. Thanks!
Hi there,
I am new to this blog–just came across it when googling info on David Bazan. I thought you folks might like to know that David is now on the bill for Calvin’s Festival of Faith and Music (April 2-4): http://www.calvin.edu/admin/sao/festival/
He will also do workshop with rock critic Jessica Hopper ( a former manager of his). Here’s the blurb from Jessica’s blog:
LOVING CHRIST, HATING CHRISTIAN ROCK (the title of the workshop)
The thing I am doing at Calvin College for their festival of faith and music can now be official and out-loud: in lieu of some boring-azz workshop, I am going to be “in discussion” with David Bazan of Pedro the Lion fame about his work, reframing faith in music, dealing with his secular and non secular audiences and coming up and out of “Christian Rock”. IT’LL BE A JAM, even though I just used the word “reframing”. The previous night will be Hold Steady and Cornell West, though on sep. bills–a dream, que no?
Qouted from Hopper’s blog: http://tiny.abstractdynamics.org/
bazan makes music i like. i don’t really care about his faith or lack of faith. i find it odd when other people worry so much about whether or not someone else is a christian or whatever.
Bob, be sure that this post has nothing to do with whether I will listen to his music (unless, I suppose, he started making explicitly anti-Christian music).
Tim
i’m glad you’ll still listen to the music. but i’m bummed you (or anyone) would write such personal things about someone you don’t know on a personal level. just because someone does not share your beliefs does not make them “ridiculously naive”.
David Bazan made public comments in a public forum and I criticized the philosophy behind those comments. That’s it.
Tim
you read a couple of paragraphs in a student newspaper written by someone who spoke to David for 10 minutes and you make insulting assumptions about his life as a husband and father. i find your comments to be libelous and defamatory.
I’m sorry you find them that way. Libelous would imply that they were untrue. You may find those statements insulting, and maybe David would too, but I think he might be able to understand where I’m coming from. As I said above, I have a particular perspective, which is going to be insulting to someone who doesn’t share that perspective. The perspective is this: the Scriptures are clear about the responsibilities of fathers, Christian or not (i.e., that they are to raise them in the fear and instruction of the Lord). If David, as he himself admits, does not think that is a good idea, then how is it libelous to say that he has abdicated that responsibility to his wife? (If that is the particular statement to which you are referring.)
As to giving his daughter “space” to make her own decisions, I’m not directly criticizing his decision to do that. (And it makes no difference to his parenting even if I do.) What I am criticizing is the ridiculous idea that children are unaffected or unformed or unindoctrinated if we say that they are. I stand by that.
Maybe you could be more specific about which assumptions of mine are libelous.
Tim
are you a husband and/or parent?
Both.
No one should say pray for him because he made a life choice that he is happy with and (in this case) is a much more rational and honest one–which makes me like him more.
I don’t know if it’s right to ask anyone to pray for anyone else… if you want to pray for someone, do it… but don’t push it on other people… ask me to pray for you, I will, but ask me to pray for him because he made a new life choice that does conform with what you believe… no thank you.
“as if someone can simply suspend judgment and assume nothing is true until enough evidence is in. That’s just stupid”
Maybe you should think about what you actually are going to say before you just vomit all over the page.
If you have ever learned something “intelligent,” which I doubt, you would find everything has more than one point of view. ESPECIALLY when it comes to what and who God is. It sounds more like you are offended that someone with talent (unlike you) is able to THINK before he acts. Key word: THINK
You’re right. There’s only one point of view: mine. So leave.
Tim
Timotheos, I disagree with you but, i do not think you were in the wrong for posting this. It led to an interesting discussion thats been very interesting to read. Its clear that some people weren’t to happy with what you had to say but the bottom line for me is what you said here:
“David Bazan made public comments in a public forum and I criticized the philosophy behind those comments. That’s it.”
Religion is something that David speaks publicly about on a regular bases. No matter what he says he is not going to please all of his listeners and David knows this. As fans of his music we have every right to question the messages he relays to us. I think he would prefer that we do. One of his most common topics in song is never to follow anything blindly. I’m the father of a beautiful soon to be 2 year old boy. As well as a former member of the mormon church. Everytime i look at him i feel an unbelievable amount of pressure to raise my son right. And I am still debating on whether or not to introduce him to christ. Right now my beliefs are not completely set in stone. I sort of feel like my wife may need to take the reins for a while until i can sort it all out. If she doesn’t feel like she can do it, then we will at least be up front and honest with our son about the world and options in front of him. I don’t think David is ignoring his responsibility to raise his daughter in the church and placing it on his wife. I think he his compromising with his wife. Its what you have to do. Anyways, I’m not gonna try and argue with you. Keep saying what you have to say Timotheus. I think everyone, regardless of whether or not they dislike you for what you said, is learning from it.
keep on keeping on.
While reading the comments to this post I couldn’t help but notice the numerous statements about, “people like (you)” or “Christians” being the reason people like David change their beliefs. Some of these comments were made by people claiming Christ and some by those claiming another belief. I can’t help but point out that while it is every follower of Christ’s responsibility to be like Christ and not tear down those around them we cannot ignore a very basic biblical truth…Free-will.
As for those who claim to believe…well, anything else…you too believe in free-will. Whether you are picking and choosing parts of religions or no religion at all (though I think that so-called “unbelief” is still a belief) you obviously are aware that you are free to believe whatever you wish and act accordingly. I don’t think anyone on here would say they believe they don’t get to make up their own mind. Ie: Free-will.
Why then, are there continuous posts that it is someone other than David that “turned” him away from God? Yes things enter our lives and influence us but ultimately it comes down to ourselves making the decisions that lead us to xyz.
Whether you agree with Timotheos’ belief or not, I think it’s naive to negate the responsibility that accompanies free-will and to pass it off on “people like Timotheos”.
As for “pushing it on other people” to pray for him, I must ask you Ezra, who is holding a gun to your head? Who forced you to read this in the first place? Again, as we have this beautiful thing called free-will you may or may not pray for him as you see fit. No one is forcing you and thusly no one is “pushing” it on you.
Excuses are excuses, whether intellectually derived and justified or not.
We must call a think what it is, otherwise we are being intellectually dishonest with ourselves and with others. One of the reasons I like reading this blog is because Timotheos does just that.
I’m not exactly clear what all David Bazan’s assumptions are, or what he now places his hopes and faith in, but when people say they no longer believe in Christ I wonder if they are simply coming to the realization that they never really believed in Him in the first place. In this, at least, they are being honest.
The telling element of his pronouncement is his emphasis on his daughter making the right decision (ie: self driven belief choices) rather than Spirit driven Faith.
If I was a Christian attending a church teaching that it is up to me to go to God, then at some point I would have to ask why do I need God if the decision is all up to me in the first place?
>>>
Murf articulates: “I don’t think David is ignoring his responsibility to raise his daughter in the church and placing it on his wife. I think he his compromising with his wife. Its what you have to do.”
Murf, you have hit right to the core of the matter.
Unfortunately, David is ignoring his responsibility to raise his daughter, in leaving the responsiblity to her and his wife to pursue their Christian life without him if not also against him. David is committing a form of idolatry, and in so doing is unfaithfully serving his family in a manner other than God demands.
Just recently heard that David “left the faith” and found this article when looking for confirmation. As a Christian it always saddens me to see somebody deny Christ. I will still remain a fan of Bazan and continue listening to his music though. I am actually attending a house show tomorrow in Denton, TX. Bazan is an amazing artist and will be worth paying attention to. Even though he no longer believes in Christ doesn’t mean we can’t benefit and learn from him. His lyrics are honest and sincere. They are about struggles with life, and who can’t benefit from relating with others?
This is certainly a difficult set of issues. I feel empathy for both sides. In some ways, I agree with the philosophical position that humankind is incapable of fully objective reasoning. The heart is deceitful (Proverbs).
But at the same time, God has given us his image within our created beings. All the science, technology, art, and literature manifests itself in good and bad ways because of this fundamentally shared quality that He has given us.
So for David to say that he isn’t interested in having his daughter learn about Jesus is not fully a bitter or naive statement and yet also not only an objective one. He is concerned for her because he doesn’t want her to become as jaded as he seems to feel about the cultural version of Christianity that he experienced. And yet he may just be throwing the baby out with the bathwater, unfortunately.
I’ve definitely lived that life and know how troubling it is. I called myself an agnostic and expressed my bitterness about my experiences in the church.
Now, however, with the help of a certain local church in Iowa, I’ll tell you if you want to know which privately, I found out that many of the reasons for this phenomena of disillusioned Western Christians springs up from both the subjective side of bitter humanity AND the fact that the Church has gotten very far off what Christ intended it to be.
In Acts we see the model for the Church and the Pauline cycle of evangelism to be fundamentally different than Western culture has made it since around 300 A.D. excluding some pockets of more prototypical churches. We shouldn’t be engaging in evangelism, church organization, or even typical Christian familial life in the ways we do. It’s not totally our fault, but it is if we learn otherwise.
God’s plan for the Church is explicitly illustrated in Acts, the Pauline letters, and the other Apostles’ writings contained in the canon. They give a very different picture than the majority of Christian churches in the West today. I feel as though I’m rambling a bit, so I’m going to cut it off here with one last piece of advice: don’t get too caught up in debatable philosophical matters; instead focus on becoming established in the biblical Way of Christ and the Apostles being careful to interpret Scripture by means of figuring out each author’s intent for the book or books he wrote.
Peace,
Sean
it’s not as if someone can simply suspend judgment and assume nothing is true until enough evidence is in…
Actually, it’s exactly like that.
No, you wouldn’t be able to function if that was the case.
This article is the PERFECT illustration of just how self-righteous and full of shit you “christians” are. If Jesus came back today, he wouldn’t take 99% of you with him. DO YOU PEOPLE EVEN KNOW YOUR OWN FUCKING DOCTRINE?! I mean seriously….there has to be a point where you half-retards figure out that nearly EVERYTHING YOU DO is in direct conflict with what you supposedly believe. Keep trying to change everyone’s beliefs….er….i mean…”winning souls for christ,” you self-righteous, judgemental, close-minded, know-nothing fucktards!
Wow, you christians REALLY impress me. I mean seriously….who else could be SO BLATANTLY HYPOCRITICAL AND SELF-RIGHTEOUS and STILL be able to sleep at night? You christians….the new nazi’s.
Oh, and before you go all “you don’t know what we believe” on me….my dad is a pastor. I grew up being spoon-fed all the bullshit you sheeple believe. If you had even an ounce of education, you’d know how ridiculous your beliefs are. At the very least, you’d see how disgusting and hypocritical christians are. ESPECIALLY in america, where you liars now have your own personal political party! Oh….but religious entities aren’t taxed because they aren’t politically affiliated! WHAT A JOKE! I can’t wait for Armageddon! I can’t wait to laugh in every one of your self-righteous, lying face! WHEN I SEE YOU ALL IN HELL, IT WILL BE MY HEAVEN.
Man I wish Jesus REALLY WOULD come back! Maaaaan would you be in for a big surprise! Timotheos….do you REALLY think Jesus thinks this article is good? Do you think he agrees? Are you REALLY soooooo fucking STUPID that you can’t see you’re being judgemental and basically telling people that YOU think David Bazan is being led astray? YOU don’t know ANYTHING. But then, YOU NEVER HAVE. But hey, these comments are “awaiting moderation,” which basically means “we’re not posting any conflicting opinions.” hahahaha you’d think you were catholic or something. I can’t wait until God strikes all you liars down
First, I never claimed I wasn’t a hypocrite. Second, you sure are spending a lot of time with us poor, judgmental (no “e” in that word), ignorant liars.
And I have no idea what Jesus thinks.
Tim
Anonymous,
I could be wrong, but you seem to be a bit upset, or perhaps just hostile towards those with whom you disagree.
And I’m pleased that you are not judgmental, because if you were, you might say really nasty things about people who believe in Jesus as their Lord and Savior.
Bazan is figuring things out and he’s brave enough to talk about it. I’m really glad he’s talking about this stuff. We don’t know what he’s feeling and where he’s going so I don’t think we should criticize him. I bet his wrestling with truth will end up bringing him even closer to the truth, whatever that is.
I cherish Bazan’s early work. It really has blessed my life, and will continue to do so.
My prayer is that David is someday willing to read the Bible, listen to the Holy Spirit and earnestly seek answers rather than abandon the conversation all together.
The last several albums were filled with pious rebukes and condemnation of the church and sinners. I’ve got enough condemnation and shame in my life. I’m ready to hear stories of how sinners like me were ransomed from the fall.
My prayers are for you David.
Say some of those prayers for yourself while you’re at it, Jeff.
Man, how many times has the word “judgmental” come up in these replies? Seriously, its all anyone seems to harp on. Because, someone makes an observation and expresses that observation does not make them “judgmental”. If you ask me, the term is used too loosely. I have learned that if one Christian doesn’t agree with another Christian, one or the other is just going to randomly throw out the “stop judging others” card. Its silly really. If I want to say “Man I saw so and so completely wasted the other night and I’m concerned that he’s not making the best decisions with his life right now” does not make me judgmental. It makes me a compassionate person. This seems to be the road that Timotheos is taking. Now it would be judging if I were to say ” Man I saw so and so completely wasted the other night and hes just too far gone he’s going to burn in hell for what he’s doing”. Timotheos has said nothing like this. He simply asked for prayers for David. Thats it.
Bazan’s cover of “Be Thou My Vision” has always been deeply moving for me. I hope to hear him perform it again someday.
Going back to the original post, I don’t think Bazan said that he was “suspending all assumption”, but rather, “suspending all your assumptions about the universe that you grew up with”… I don’t see any significant semantic loophole through which Bazan could be taken out of context to the degree that his statement does not make sense. He is not saying that he is an individual who no longer assumes, he is making the statement that the things he once believed uncompromisingly true do not hold weight for him anymore. This makes sense to anyone who once believed in Santa Claus (and I don’t intend for that point to sound sacrilegious… I am merely engaging a mindset).
My personal take is that Bazan reduced God to a straw-man he no longer needed before abdicating belief entirely… I have heard statements he made about how a gracious god must remove struggle from our lives if he does not condone when we choose to engage in the sinful fruits of that struggle… Anyone who makes a statement to that degree obviously has lost perspective of the notion of depravity, atonement, and forgiveness.
Bazan’s a personal friend and he’s on a journey. Give him some grace. He’s seeking truth with all his heart, from what I can tell.
Hey y’all, it’s me again…I was thinking this morning that if you guys could only know what Bazan’s thoughts on God are right now, you would probably approve of them. They’re different than from when he made the statements you guys are talking about.
I think it’s so important to be on a journey. God doesn’t want us to be robots. Faith requires doubt, or else it’s not faith. It’s uncomfortable to wrestle with things, but that’s where all the beauty as well as the pain lie. I think that when we do this we enter into actual relationship with God and others. That’s why judging people is so destructive, it protects you from seeing what could be true because it’s more comfortable to think the way you always have.
Thanks for letting me post my thoughts here.
What can it mean to say “Faith requires doubt, or else it’s not faith”? Sounds like a post-modern cliche to me.
Faith (I use it as a synonym for “trust”) is antithetical to doubt. Uncertainty is the enemy of faith; Christ did not come so that we would be uncertain or wavering as to who He is for us.
Tim
Faith requires doubt by definition. And without faith you cannot please God. God isn’t gratified when we believe in him only because we’ve logistically mapped it all out.
It’s good to hear Bazan is still learning and developing in his faith. Anyone who has grown up indoctrinated in the church knows that at some inevitable moment, he or she will be struck by doubt. That’s probably what Stephanie meant. Faith might be antithetical to doubt “on paper,” but in the real world anyone who claims to have faith has doubts.
There’s nothing postmodern about faith needing a doubt. Scripture says that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. If you could see them or touche them then you wouldn’t need faith.
Christ came because he so loved the world, not to get us to be robots for him. Those people who were in love with the law and had no heart or grace he called Pharisees.
“There’s nothing postmodern about faith needing a doubt. Scripture says that faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. If you could see them or touche them then you wouldn’t need faith.”
How does “the assurance of things hoped for and the conviction of things not seen” equal doubt? You’ve been misled into thinking that the only alternative to doubt is being a “robot.” But that’s not the case; nor is the alternative to doubt arrogant spiritual pride. The alternative to doubt is faith: whole-hearted trust that Jesus is who He says He is and He’ll do what He says He’ll do.
[Listening to "Nothing," Whole EP, Pedro the Lion]
[...] okay. So people don’t like what I say or the way I say it. Specifically, with regard to David Bazan. (How many times do I have to say that I like his music, have nearly everything he’s put [...]
“No, you wouldn’t be able to function if that was the case.”
when it comes to the ineffable and non-material, why not? the only direct (measurable) consequences are psychological, and even those are subjective. while it means a lot for one’s mental and emotional landscape generally speaking, both believers and unbelievers wear seatbelts. and if one assumes the question is either unanswerable, unknowable or simply uninteresting, one will still probably wear a seatbelt.
I’m not sure what you’re referring to. I was saying that you wouldn’t be able to function by having no assumptions and suspending judgment until you have “objectively” considered all the “evidence.” Since your assumptions determine what you will take as evidence (no one does or can consider everything than anyone might take as evidence for one conclusion or another), you can’t consider evidence until you have some assumptions.
It is not possible to function in this world without having assumptions about the world. Specifically, one who has been brought up either as a Christian or apart from Christian faith will be working with those assumptions or against them, regardless of any other considerations. You can’t not assume your past experience.
Tim
no assumptions about anything, sure. but no assumptions about how the universe works, behind the scenes as it were? for example, grab average person a off the street and ask them to explain how gravity works. they have operational knowledge of it (i.e. falling down hurts) but probably don’t know anything of the theory of gravity. which is fine, because they only have to deal with the operational side of things (i.e. not falling down). someone might think evolution is true or false or subsumed by turtles all the way down or whatever, but antibiotics still work on their system regardless of their beliefs or disbeliefs.
akin to that is the issue of metaphysics. while i see what you mean re: assumptions and how you would process a life event (accident survival was a miracle / random chance / both / driver skill / other / etc) but regardless of whether you put it into a yes, no or even maybe category, the accident still happened. the operational side – the physical side – has been dealt with; the emotional/spiritual side doesn’t necessarily have that kind of component.
i do think that perhaps the category of “maybe” is overlooked; there are plenty of folks who were raised within a religious system who simply didn’t absorb the system, or grew up thinking of it akin to a kind of social game rather than a reflection of how their tradition assumed the universe works. how much that stuff leaks into someone’s mind and actions may actually be impossible to really separate or quantify, even on an individual level by themselves.
so…maybe?
dhex, what I’m trying (perhaps unsuccessfully) to get at is the untenability of the common assertion that someone can objectively evaluate the evidence for or against the truth claims of Christianity, and come to a completely objective conclusion. No one is objective, no one comes to that question without assumptions one way or the other–and that’s whether they know it or not. Further, simply knowing what one’s assumptions are does not mean one can decide the question objectively.
Someone who is raised within a religious system (or any system, for that matter; and we are all raised in some system) either assumes the truth of the claims, consciously or unconsciously, or moves against those assumptions, consciously or unconsciously. The point is not that everyone raised in a particular system of assumptions will automatically or osmotically (is that a word?) take the assumptions of the system as his or her own, but that they will have some assumptions.
I think you’re right that it is impossible to separate out or quantify all of the assumptions that make up a who a person is and what he or she believes.
Thanks,
Tim
I think the point tim is trying to make that all you guys seem to miss is a fairly straight forward point! Objective reality exists and is constant outside of our perception (if you jump off a building and believe you can fly with all of your heart you are still going to fall!) ; but our ability to percieve reality is based on assumptions that can never be entirely objective because we are not omniscent and will always be missing a piece of the puzzle. I hope i am not missquoting you tim but that seems pretty straight forward!
I think the only thing I would add is that we are completely shaped by all the experiences and everything else that has gone into making us who we are. So, all of that determines what we see and how we see it.
But you are right, I believe in an absolutely objective reality outside of all perception: God’s, which we know in Jesus Christ.
Tim
Hello all. I stumbled upon this blog whilst searching for some of Bazan’s work. Now I will admit that I myself am not of any religious denomination. I simply find myself as a human being traveling through on a journey, seeking nothing but everything at the same time. I have not read the majority of replies on this post so I will comment from simply my own subjective point of view.
I was introduced to Bazan’s work through a friend of mine, playing his self-titled EP a few years ago. I immediately fell in love with his writing. I find myself constantly questioning humanity and the possibility of any absolutes.
As an artist, Bazan is simply honest. He does not sugarcoat anything and states how he is feeling at all times. Christian or non-Christian, one must appreciate him for this. He is not falsifying his faith, standing before this all-mighty being and saying “yes, I’m a believer” when in fact he is not. As an artist of any sort I find that it is necessary to express one’s feelings and views for any sort of art to be genuine.
And that is what Bazan does.
Was he a full-fledged believer when he was first began his recorded works? Yes, to some degree. Even in his earliest works you can hear his yearn for the truth to be presented to him. He constantly questions humanity as to how can anyone do these actions unto each other, God-fearing or not?
Take Bazan’s music for what it is- an expression of himself. As a Christian, I understand that it is in your nature to want to bring someone to your truth and light, but as one person stated, Bazan’s future and questioning is between this God and himself.
I appreciate your analysis, Timotheos, but realize that Bazan is true to himself and to his fans, so respect his decisions and his comments on his family and faith.
Signed,
Someone on his own Journey
I too stumbled upon this blog much to my own detriment. I would counter the bloggers comments that Bazan’s comments are naive with a simple idea that no one can force anyone to believe certain things are true. Your argument is that David Bazan is less intelligent because he doesn’t believe in absolute truth. It makes you less intelligent for making blanket assumptions about someone’s private life. Also, why are we making exegetical statements about a fucking interview? Seriously, write about something substantial.
“Your argument is that David Bazan is less intelligent because he doesn’t believe in absolute truth.”
Sorry, no. Read it again.
“Also, why are we making exegetical statements about a fucking interview?”
Because I care about what Bazan does (in the sense of respecting his work) and because what he says in that interview is representative of so much modern discourse. That’s why. But I’m not sure why an expletive is required if you have such a strong point.
Tim
I missed this before: “Take Bazan’s music for what it is- an expression of himself. As a Christian, I understand that it is in your nature to want to bring someone to your truth and light, but as one person stated, Bazan’s future and questioning is between this God and himself.”
No, it’s not between God and himself if, as his new album bears witness (no pun on the song title), most of the songs clearly identify where he is. If he gives interviews and devotes nearly an entire album to where he is in his “journey,” then it is clearly not out of bounds to respond to the issues he raises.
And I couldn’t care less about “my truth and light.” What I think doesn’t matter. And it matters even less if it’s only “my” truth.
Tim
This is awesome. I found this by mistake… or was it? The time and thought that most of these posts require and the use of language (not the foul kind) is rewarding. This is what makes being a Christ follower great, we can dialog and argue and then dialog some more. The truth of the matter is we are all still family (sinner or saint) when everything is said and done, until it is all over.
One of the things that I most agree with is the ability to speak one’s mind. I did not find this piece to be anything but something to get a dialog started and it has successfully done that. I must confess that a few of the posts left me rolling on the floor due to there nature.
I see people from all walks of life represented on this page and it is very rewarding to read. While I feel that this chain has taken on a life of its own, and has covered many other things that were not originally posted in the Tim’s piece, I hope that it continues for what it is.
it’s a bummer that some christians like to judge people. real classy. no one here knows David or has any first-hand knowledge about his personal life. i believe this is what we call in the secular world “talking out of your ass” – i guess that explains the name of this blog.
Come on Bob. Did anyone comment on anything but what he has said publicly? Did I speculate on anything personal that he hasn’t spoken or written or sung about? Give me a break. As if “talking out of your ass” was not a judgment. Everyone makes judgments every time they speak, as you so aptly illustrate. So speak about something substantial instead of the same old “judgment” nonsense. If all you have are ad hominem attacks, then what’s the point?
Tim
calling you out on being judgemental is not me judging you. it’s me telling you that you don’t have any idea what you are talking about. you base your assumptions on an article in a college news paper written by someone who had a 10 minute phone conversation with David. You have no first-hand knowledge about David as person, husband and father. I maintain that you are talking out of your ass.
But you’re not going to say anything substantial, are you? You’re going to continue with the ridiculous ad hominems and refuse to engage the actual point (which is not really about David Bazan, but about his opinion). But you can’t see that. The point, as I have so tiresomely had to repeat again and again to people like you, is about whether anyone can raise children to objectively consider a number of options and then, objectively, decide on them. I happened to take David Bazan’s comments as the point of departure and his defenders simply cannot see anything but some perceived slight. I respect him; I just happen to disagree with his opinion. Sorry you can’t handle that.
Tim
I know David pretty well. He has a lot of integrity. I agree with you Bob.
Just to be clear, Bob: are you saying that David was lying or misquoted in that interview? What, exactly, did I misread from that interview? If there is something lacking, and my comments were out of order, why don’t you say why that is, instead of resorting to other irrelevant, un-constructive statements.
Tim
Got to say, I too, like many above, stumbled over this article and very interesting discussion that follows. I’m new to David Bazan, so I am not quite as emotionally invested as some of you may be. I don’t say that to be a good or bad thing, just the truth. That being said, I wanted to put in my two cents on the issue because I like Bazan’s new album after just listening to it, and also because I’ve had my own strange spiritual journey.
First off, it seems to me that you’re reading a bit into the whole “objective” decision making thing. I didn’t see anywhere in that quote, Bazan claiming that his daughter’s decision would be some perfectly clean objective decision. Of couse subjectivity is involved in all of our decisions, even the decision to believe in God. My take on the issue is that he doesn’t feel the need to raise her in a “This is this way because I say so and know so”.
And why can’t there be a third way? My parents are church-goers, but they always allowed me space for my own decision-making. We didn’t attend church when I was a kid, I did so out of my own volition for awhile, but I appreciate the space that they gave me. While, yes, I made my own decisions, they helped me make informed, guilt-free decisions, by not setting up a frame work based on “black or white” thought process, i.e. if you go to church you’re good, if you don’t you’re bad. They weren’t teaching me that church didn’t matter, they were teaching me to think for myself in an informed an intelligent way.
That being said, I am making myself dizzy, because I am trying my best to have a rational religious discussion, but obviously, judging by some of the very angry responses, it is difficult, if not impossible. Your base assumption is that God is real and Jesus is the Lord and Savior. Mine is not, so it’s hard to find a middle ground. I am an admirer of Bill Maher’s film, “Religilous”, not because I necessarily agree with everything he says or every approach he takes, but because he allows for there to be honest discussion and because he is willing to challenge the idea that the discussion is a “black or white” one. There are always shades of gray, and David Bazan is exploring those shades. And I admire that he is going to encourage his daughter to do the same.
Respectfully yours,
Andy
Well said Andy.
Bazan left the fold because evangelical/fundamentalist Christianity is not true. There was no talking snake. People cannot rise from the dead. Religion is man made. Jesus is dead. Christianity in a fundamentlaist form is a hateful religion.
That a magical super being would torture his creations forever because of their opinion about the basis of an ancient book full of very hard to believe things with all the earmarks of myth is one of the most retarded and hateful beliefs that humans hold.
Kudos to Bazan for growing up and dropping the outdated supernaturalist worldview.
I think it’s cute when atheists spend so much time trying to refute something they are absolutely certain does not exist. No Fundamentalist is as dogmatic as an atheist trying to fight off the specter of God.
Tim
Firstly, I think absolute certainty is your guys dogmatic realm, not the “atheists”. I’m certain about nothing. And second, Christianity exists and is a fact in the world. The God v. No God conversation is absolutely epic and stimulating. If A billion people believed in smurfs, I’d join that conversation as well and so would you probably. We should all be concerned when others believe false things. George W. was a rabid fundy with his finger on the red button. Our Nation’s position regarding Israel is greatly affected due to the influence of an ancient book that contains stories of talking friggin’ animals. Policy towards science education is influence by supernaturalists who believe the world is 6-10K years old. Stem cell research has been effected by Christian supernaturalists. There is a real danger here. Thats why we care.
“I’m certain about nothing.”
“Christianity is not true. There was no talking snake. People cannot rise from the dead. Religion is man made. Jesus is dead.”
Yeah. No certainty there.
Well, I acknowledge that I could be wrong but I feel that probability is very, very low. I also could be wrong about the smurfs.
Perhaps Gargamel has corrupted all our senses. The Smurfs weren’t just a cartoon — they are real but he is keeping them hidden from us. This is what Christians do when they accept the supernaturalist worldview. Satan is given power to corrupt sensory data. Thats a slippery slope though — perhaps Yahweh is actually an evil God corrupting our senses. There is no way to really know.
You could be right. but yours is just one of thousands of supernaturalist worlviews man has come up with over time and so far they have all proven false. The naturalist worldview passes tests. No supernatrual explanation has ever, ever replaced a natural one but thousasnds of natural explanations have replaced supernatural ones.
My favorite portion of the reaction to the whole Bazan thing is “he must not have ever REALLY felt the holy spirit. He must have never bee a REAL Christian”. Pshh. Christians can be so pathetically deluded and stupid. If you aren’t on their team anymore they’ll take a shit on you. They become more Yahweh in their reaction than Jesus. Well — maybe they become money-changer Jesus.
Have fun continuing to believe in really bizaar and hateful things man! I will certainly be sorry when your loving God is torturing me in hellfire for not believing in his ancient book! What a plan that guy has! What a mega cosmic genius he is! Inspire a book full of supernatural content in a certain language(s), in a certain portion of the world when the overwhelming majority of humans are illiterate. Let that thing go through thousands of scribes and translations, show virtually no evidence of the supernatural present in the world for anyone to ever witness but then TORTURE everyone who doesn’t believe in what your book says! Brillian! Brilliant that Yahweh, Jesus, Ghost 3-headed God you guys worship is! Your God IS an awesome God!
And FUCK David Bazan for rejecting him! That guy was never a real Christian anyways!
I don’t know what you’re reading, but it’s not this blog. I never even hinted at anything about the nature of Bazan’s Christianity.
“You could be right. but yours is just one of thousands of supernaturalist worlviews man has come up with over time and so far they have all proven false. The naturalist worldview passes tests. No supernatrual explanation has ever, ever replaced a natural one but thousasnds of natural explanations have replaced supernatural ones.”
You have a strange view of “natural/supernatural” that does not even remotely resemble the Christian view. So if you want to dismantle that dichotomy, go ahead. But it’s not Christianity.
As for the rest of your spewage, you might actually want to find out what Christians really believe, before you stake your opinion of them and the God they worship on caricatures and non sequiturs.
Tim
hey, david might be “struggling” to believe in God and even say he doesn’t believe anymore….
but i know one thing: God hasn’t stopped believing in him or loving him – He sees the heart and deep in there the “hook of His love” is still at work….